Fantasque Time Line

[Merlock]

MP! 8)
_________________
"Le journalisme moderne... justifie son existence grâce au grand principe darwinien de la survivance du plus vulgaire." (Oscar Wilde).

[patzekiller]

copier coller du mp, je te laisse preciser la source
Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 3: Siam

Postby SASH155 on 29 Jan 2010, 02:28
Siam:

Pistols and Revolvers:

7.63 x 25mm Mauser: Mauser C-96 “Broomhandle” pistol. Siam acquired unknown quantities of C-96 Broomhandles from Oberndorf starting in 1911, primarily for use by police forces.

7.63 x 25mm Mauser: Astra Model 903 copies of the Mauser C-96 “Broomhandle” pistol. Siam purchased an undisclosed quantity of Model 903 pistols during the mid-1930s (likely no more than a few hundred); these pistols were characterized by their detachable ten round and twenty round box magazines.

7.65 x 17mm: Gabilondo y Compania (“Llama”) Model X pistol. A smaller pistol based on the Colt M-1911, but it had a solid backstrap and no grip safety. This type of pistol was sold to the Siamese military from 1935-ca. 1940.

8mm Nambu Bottlenecked (similar to 7.63mm Mauser): Taisho Fourth Year (1915) Nambu pistol. Unknown quantities (likely fewer than 1000) of these pistols were imported into Mexico for commercial sale to Japanese immigrants, likely during the early 1920s. The only other country to officially adopt this pistol was Siam (Thailand), which imported 500 of these pistols shortly after their introduction in 1915. The manufacturer of the pistols sold in Mexico is said to have been Kayaba Kogyo Kabushiki Kaisha, also simply known as Kayaba Kabushiki K.K. This pistol was one of the rare examples of Japanese designed and manufactured weaponry exported outside of the Japanese Empire.

9 x 17mm Browning (aka. 9mm “Corto”): Gabilondo y Compania (“Llama”) Model III pistol. This pistol was based on the Colt M-1911, and was characterized by its solid backstrap and lack of a grip safety. These pistols were sold to Siam from ca. 1935-1940.

9 x 19mm Parabellum: Gabilondo y Compania (“Llama”) Model XI pistol (aka. “Modello Especial”). This pistol was also based on the M-1911, but was characterized by its distinctive grip profile, and the lack of a grip safety. Sales of this pistol to Siam began about 1936 and would have continued until 1939 or 1940.

9 x 23mm Bergman-Bayard (aka. 9mm “Largo”): Gabilondo y Compania (“Llama”) Model VII pistol. Design based on Colt M-1911, but lacks grip safety and has a solid backstrap. Sales of these pistols to Siam started around 1932, and continued through ca. 1939-1940, when Franco took over in Spain.

9 x 23mm Bergman-Bayard (aka. 9mm “Largo”): Gabilondo y Compania (“Llama”) Model VIII pistol. Another pistol based on the Colt M-1911, but this time with a grip safety. Introduced in 1939, sales of this pistol to Saim were likely brief due to the Nationalist takeover in Spain.

9 x 23mm Largo or 11.43x 23mm (.45 ACP) ?: Star Model M or Model MD (Type 80/ Model of 1937) selective fire pistols. Siam acquired small numbers of these Spanish made pistols during the late 1930s. Siam tried to set up a factory with British machine tools to make these pistols locally in 1938, but this project was halted due to the start of the Second World War.

Submachine guns:


Rifles:

11 x 60mm: Mauser M-1871 rifle: Siam ordered an undetermined quantity of these rifles during the 1870s and 1880s, and as such were the first modern rifles in use in Siam.

8 x 50mmR: M-1888 and M-1888-90 Mannlicher rifles: This was one of the first straight-pull Mannlichers, and was used not only by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but was also exported to Bulgaria, Chile, Greece, Siam and apparently, China. These rifles were supplied to Siam by Steyr (Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft), likely during the early to mid 1890s. It is possible that the standard Siamese 8mm cartridge was modeled from the Mannlicher 8 x 50mmR.

8 x 50mmR and 8 x 52R Siamese: Japanese Arisaka Type 30 (Model of 1897) and Type 35 (Model of 1902) rifles: Siam purchased an unknown quantity of Japanese Arisaka Type 30 and Type 35 rifles prior to 1920 chambered for the bottlenecked Siamese 8 x 50mmR cartridge (after 1923 Siam would re-chamber her rifles for the new 8 x 52mmR cartridge which had a pointed bullet).

8 x 50mmR and 8 x 52R Siamese: Type 45 (M-1902) Mauser rifle: This became the standard service rifle in Siam from 1903, replacing the Mannlichers in frontline service. Siam purchased an unknown quantity of these weapons from the Koishikawa arsenal between 1903 and 1908. Most were re-chambered after 1923 in 8 x 52mmR, and as such were redesignated Type 45/66 (M-1902/23). The rifles were distinctive in having Japanese style pointed pistol grip stocks and sliding bolt covers, as on Arisaka rifles.

7 x 57mm Mauser: Type 47 (M-1904) Mauser rifle. Siam purchased an undetermined quantity of M-1904 export rifles (similar to ones sold to Brazil and China as the M-1907, Chile as the M-1904, and Costa Rica and Venezuela as the M-1910) prior to 1914. They differed from the others in having slightly longer barrels and weighing slightly more. These rifles may have been acquired because of a shortage of Type 45 rifles.

8 x 52R Siamese: Type 66 (M-1923) Mauser short rifle: Made at Koishikawa from 1923, it is believed that many of these weapons were simply cut down Type 45 rifles for use by artillery and cavalry units. Some of these weapons may have been newly made, however.

7 x 57mm Mauser or 7.92 x 57mm Mauser?: ZB (Brno) ZH-29 semi-automatic rifle: This advanced rifle was designed by Emanuel Holek ca. 1927-1928, allegedly to meet a Chinese requirement for a semi-auto rifle. China acquired 150 of the rifles in 1929, and several hundred more were purchased through 1932, for a total of between 500 and 600 of these very well made rifles. This rifle was also exported in small quantities to Siam and Ethiopia, and was tested in 1932 by both Romania and Turkey. Several undisclosed South American countries tested the weapon as well.




Machine guns:

8 x 52R Siamese: M-1925, M-1930, M-1934, M-1939, M-1947, M-1949 and M-1951 Madsen light machineguns. The Madsen was the standard light machinegun employed by the Siamese army for many years. The last variant, the M-1951, chambered the U.S. 30-06 (7.62x63mm) cartridge. The differences between the various “models” of Madsen guns was often none to negligible, and usually simply represented the dates the guns were ordered and manufactured more than any significant design or detail change. However, there seems to have been a change during the mid to late 1920s in the design of the flash hider/muzzle booster assembly, and the form of the stock (a pronounced angle in the butt stock seems to have characterized weapons made after ca. 1923-1924).

8 x 52R Siamese: ZB (Brno) vz. 26 light machine gun. Reported, but details are sparse on the quantity and date they were acquired.

8 x 52R Siamese: Colt-Browning M-1924 heavy machine gun. Siam acquired 216 of these re-designated M-1919 Browning water cooled HMGs in January 1925 from Colt.

8 x 52R Siamese: Vickers Class “C” heavy machine gun. Siam purchased 742 Class “C” Vickers guns between 1929 and 1936, ten of which were Vickers Class “C/T” tank machine guns for mounting in the ten Vickers armored cars acquired in 1933. Apparently these weapons were designated Type 77 and Type 76 respectively.

7.7 x 56mm R (.303 British) and 8 x 52R Siamese: Vickers Class “E” and “F” aircraft machine gun. Siam acquired 344 Class “E” fixed aircraft guns and 102 Class “F” flexible aircraft machine guns between 1926 and 1937.

12.7 x 81mm (.50 caliber Vickers): Vickers Class “B” heavy aircraft gun. Siam acquired 49 of these unusual Vickers aircraft machine guns between 1934 and 1937.

12.7 x 120mmSR (.50 caliber Vickers): Vickers Class “D” High Velocity heavy machine gun. China acquired twenty of these guns as anti-aircraft weapons in 1932 via Jardine-Matheson in Hong Kong. Siam acquired 24 of these guns as well, and Japan acquired the balance of 56.

Mortars:

Anti-Tank Weapons:

Artillery:

47mm/81mm: Bofors M-1934 (Type 77) dual purpose field gun. These unusual weapons had a 47mm barrel for anti-tank work and an 81mm barrel for use as a mortar mounted in an over-under fashion with the 47mm gun on top. They were used as direct infantry support weapons. Siam took delivery of 32 of these guns in 1935. See entry for China above also.

75mm: Rheinmetall (formerly Ehrhardt) M-1914 mountain gun (7.5cm GebK. L/16 “China” M-1914). China ordered this weapon just before the First World War, and reports state that the German government seized all 18 of the guns for its own use, later passing these and some newly built weapons on to the Austro-Hungarian army and Ottoman Turkey. Nine batteries of a very similar weapon had been sold to Norway as the 7.5cm Mountain Howitzer M. 11, and photographic evidence indicates that Siam may have purchased a few as well.

75mm: Bofors M-1934 or M-1935 field gun: This was a new Bofors design, with the hydro-pneumatic buffer in the cradle and a hydraulic recuperator on top, somewhat reminiscent of the German 10.5 cm leFH-18 in appearance. 200 pieces were received by China from Bofors out of 224 ordered (the remaining 24 were seized by Sweden to arm her own army; eight of the weapons were passed on to Finland in 1940). These guns were also purchased by Belgium (20) and Siam (52 out of an order for 80 guns delivered between 1937 and 1940; the balance of 28 guns was seized by Sweden in 1940 for use by her own army); China reportedly purchased a few as well. Sweden used a slightly modified version designated M/40. Argentina passed on several of these guns to Bolivia in 1971, as well as to Paraguay around the same time. Argentina also supplied Uruguay a battery of the guns in 1979. Some 70 of these weapons were still in service or in reserve as late as 2005.

75mm: Bofors M-1930 mountain gun. Bofors exported this weapon in large numbers not only to China, but also to Argentina (M-1936), Bulgaria (M-1936), the Netherlands East Indies (7.5cm berg), Persia (M-1934), Siam (which received eight of the Turkish M. 30 guns in 1934), Switzerland (7.5cm GebK. 33), and Turkey (7.5cm/20 M. 30). Even the Germans purchased some, which they designated the 7.5 cm GebH. 34. Cockerill in Belgium made the gun under license for the Belgian army as the “Canon de 75mm mle. 1934”.

105mm: Bofors L/22 M-1936 field howitzer (Type 79). Siam took delivery of twenty of these field howitzers out of an order for 36 between 1936 and 1940. The balance of 16 was diverted in 1940 for use by the Swedish army. Similar weapons were supplied to the Netherlands East Indies in 1924 designated as the “10.5cm houwitzer L/22” by the Dutch, and to a weapon supplied to Denmark during the late 1930s designated the 105mm M.35 L/16.7 Bof. field howitzer by the Danes. Peru took delivery of an unknown quantity of these howitzers designated M-1929.

105mm: Bofors M-1934 L/42 field gun. Siam acquired four of these counter battery guns in early 1935. Persia was another customer for this weapon.

149mm: Bofors M-1934 L/24 field howitzer. Siam acquired eight of these howitzers in 1936. Turkey bought a similar gun designated the 15cm/24 M. 39.



Anti-Aircraft Guns:

75mm: Bofors M-1929 anti-aircraft gun: China acquired an unknown quantity of these guns from Bofors during the 1930s, and as well as being used in two versions by Sweden itself (M/29 in 75mm and M/30 in 80mm), they were exported to Argentina (apparently for trials purposes only), Finland, Greece, Hungary (in 80mm as the 8cm 29M), Iran, the Netherlands East Indies (in 80mm as the kanon van 8 ld) and Siam, which acquired 18 of these AA guns between 1936 and 1939 in 75mm as the M-1930 (Type 73).
_________________
www.strategikon.info
www.frogofwar.org

[Merlock]

[sting01]

Aucune reponse a ce jour de la part des authorites militaires locales (Thailandaises) a ma demande pour une consultation d'archives ou de tout autre documents ayant trait a ce sujet.

Notons que la vie politique locale est actuellement un peu 'boulverse', car nous devrions avoir sous peu un nouveau Premier Ministre, qui devrait etre une 'jeune' femme (42 ans je crois), photogenique (c'est la Thailande diantre), a priori intellignete et surtout venant d'une famille hai (et c'est peu dire) par l'armatha (pare les elites invisibles que vous ne pouvez, sous peine de rencontrer un sort peu enviable, nomes precisement). Donc je suppose que les plus hautes authorites militaires on d'autres soucis (tres legitimes) que la demande d'un vieux farang.
_________________
La can can-can, cancouillote,
c'est pas fait pour les francois.

Anscarides je suis ne,
heritier de la Comte je serai.

[Merlock]

Tant pis je finirai bien par trouver! Et merci d'avoir essayé!
_________________
"Le journalisme moderne... justifie son existence grâce au grand principe darwinien de la survivance du plus vulgaire." (Oscar Wilde).

[Atlantic Friend]

Le Siam disposait de chars Vickers lors de la guerre Franco-Thailandaise de 1941.

Je dois avoir quelque part l'ordre de bataille des deux camps lors de cette guerre, si tu ne l'as pas déjà trouvé.
_________________
"J'ai affirmé dans un café que l'Amiral Darlan était un jean-foutre. Aujourd'hui j'ajoute que le Maréchal Pétain en est un autre, qui laisse brimer les soldats par des marins !"

Colonel Jarret-Duplessis, in l'Armée des Ombres

[Merlock]

[sting01]

une liste d'ouvrages qu'il devrait vosu etre facile de consulter (du moins pour celui en gras ) :


Aldrich, Richard J. THE KEY TO THE SOUTH: BRITAIN, THE UNITED STATES, AND THAILAND DURING THE APPROACH OF THE PACIFIC WAR, 1929-1942. Kuala Lumpur: Oxford University Press, 1993.

Allen, Louis. BURMA: THE LONGEST WAR, 1941-45. New York: St Martin's Press, 1984

Hammer, Ellen J. THE STRUGGLE FOR INDOCHINA, 1940-1955. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1966.

Hesse d'Alzon, Claude. LA PRESENCE MILITAIRE FRANCAISE EN INDOCHINE (1940-1945). Chateau de Vincennes: Publications du Service Historique de l'Armee de Terre, 1985.

Kirby, S. Woodburn. THE WAR AGAINST JAPAN, volume 1: THE LOSS OF SINGAPORE. London: HMSO, 1957.

Langer, William L. and S. Everett Gleason. THE UNDECLARED WAR, 1940-1941. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1953.

Reynolds, E. Bruce. THAILAND AND JAPAN'S SOUTHERN ADVANCE, 1940-1945. New York: St Martin's Press, 1994.
_________________
La can can-can, cancouillote,
c'est pas fait pour les francois.

Anscarides je suis ne,
heritier de la Comte je serai.

[sting01]

Un ODB qui me semble (pesonal feeling, sorry) complet :

http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/ob_ftw.html

un autre

http://stonebooks.com/history/indoob.shtml


un autre pour le Siam :

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/Thailand_WW2.htm

un p'tit dernier pour la route (je dois me rendre a une reunion avec Monsieur le Consul honoraire) :

http://web.archive.org/web/20091027105115/http://geocities.com/thailandwwii/oob.html

Vous noterez l'uniforme porte par les soldats : Suae Mark Ma ! (tres beau en thai) .... Un uniforme francais avec un casque Adrian tres tendance ...
_________________
La can can-can, cancouillote,
c'est pas fait pour les francois.

Anscarides je suis ne,
heritier de la Comte je serai.

[sting01]

un visuel du placement des troupes

http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/frameftf.html

plus generalement , des tas d'ODB tres interressant

http://france1940.free.fr/f41index.html#Indochina

Wadee Krub!
_________________
La can can-can, cancouillote,
c'est pas fait pour les francois.

Anscarides je suis ne,
heritier de la Comte je serai.

[Atlantic Friend]

Un char Vickers de 6 tonnes de l'armée siamoise :



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
_________________
"J'ai affirmé dans un café que l'Amiral Darlan était un jean-foutre. Aujourd'hui j'ajoute que le Maréchal Pétain en est un autre, qui laisse brimer les soldats par des marins !"

Colonel Jarret-Duplessis, in l'Armée des Ombres

[Atlantic Friend]

Pour l'OdB, Sting m'a devancé. Trois petis plans en prime :

2 plans terrestres :





Et 1 des opérations navales :


_________________
"J'ai affirmé dans un café que l'Amiral Darlan était un jean-foutre. Aujourd'hui j'ajoute que le Maréchal Pétain en est un autre, qui laisse brimer les soldats par des marins !"

Colonel Jarret-Duplessis, in l'Armée des Ombres

[sting01]