Fantasque Time Line

[DMZ]

Comme l'a mentionné lukedalton sur alternatehistory, Benny n'y ira pas tant que les Alliés semblent trop puissants. Mais comme beaucoup l'ont fait remarquer, il ne pourra pas se retenir très longtemps dès qu'il sentira qu'il y a de la charogne à dépecer. Le tournant au plus tard sera certainement le même qu'OTL : la percée du front de la Somme et de l'Ailette par la Wehrmacht ou l'équivalent en fonction de la situation.

Il est aussi possible qu'Hitler obtienne un engagement plus tôt si la situation n'évolue pas assez vite en faisant miroiter un effondrement rapide de la résistance et une absence de risque pour l'Italie.
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« Vi offro fame, sete, marce forzate, battaglia e morte. » « Je vous offre la faim, la soif, la marche forcée, la bataille et la mort. » Giuseppe Garibaldi

[DMZ]

[solarien]

J'ai toujours un problème avec le récit et encore plus vis à vis de la situation:

Les allemands ont percé jusqu'a Abbeville en partant de Cambrai ?
- Il ne contrôle ni Amiens, ni Arras ?
- Niveau logistique, c'est un désastre, il y a bien quelque route, mais il s'agit plus de chemin de terre ou pavé que belle route, donc sans sérieux entretien, la route est vite détruite.
- Même si l'infanterie allemande suit les blindés, il lui faut du temps pour se mettre en position et construire une bonne ligne défensive.
- Et niveau anti-char, les paks 36 allemands ne valent rien face au char alliées, surtout face au Mathilda, des chars sur-blindées.
L'autre chose, c'est que OTL, les services de renseignement alliées avaient trouvé le gros des plans allemands et la date de l'offensive mais personne ne les a crus, c'est surement pareil dans ta TL ? On peux d'ailleurs supposé qu'ils auront des bonnes infos sur la nouvelle offensive allemandes.
Mais les généraux, qui ont surement dus voir que les RG avaient fournie tout les infos, continuent à ne pas lire leur rapports et les consulter ??

[Wings]

Chapter 15: Delestraint’s gamble (July 1940 – Flanders)

With the Flanders pocket being closed, the Germans now found themselves at a crossroads: they could either launch all their troops forward in a vast effort to close the pocket and force the “Lys line”, or they could be cautious and use their troops sparingly, in view of the next offensive towards the French heartland.

In the end, OKH decided on the second option: a prudent advance towards the Channel ports, while saving their troops for the next great offensive southwards.
However, the French had designs of their own.

In fact, after the failure at Arras, new plans were drawn up for a push along the coast, notably reducing the bridgeheads at Abbeville. This force would then barrel along the coast and reach out to the French troops holding out at Boulogne.

This counter-offensive force would be led by the 4e DCR, which amalgamated most of the armored vehicles of the 2e DCR, and would be helped by the 6th Australian Division, recently disembarked at Marseille [1]. In support would also be the British 1st Armoured and the 51st (Highland) Infantry Division. Charles Delestraint would be put in charge of this force, with Sir Victor Fortune assisting him.

As for air support…the French general staff had asked special permission to use the Dixmude group, currently at Devonport, in order to reduce the potential German artillery positions on the heights.

On July 9th, the French and British forces advanced on the bridgeheads, which had undergone a severe artillery barrage. As expected, though, the Germans put up strong resistance, holding on doggedly and knocking out a substantial part of the Allies’ armor.

However, the Dixmude group arrived right on time. Helped out by the RAF, who was also busy covering the evacuations, the French bombers hammered the German anti-tank positions at Caumont and along the Abbeville heights (such as the Mont de Caubert). This thus allowed to relieve a considerable amount of pressure on the 4e DCR and 1st Armoured, which managed to reach the Somme river by nightfall, though at the cost of almost 80 armoured vehicles.

The defenders, of the 57. Infanterie-Division, soon found themselves mismatched. Against this deluge of armor, and benefitting from the support of no one, the Panzer Divisions having either moved north or being rested, the Germans could hardly do more. And at OKH, one doubted at the ability of the Allies to be able to cross the Somme.

Yet, on the morning of June 10th, French SOMUA S35s and Renault R35s managed to take the westernmost bridge at Abbeville, sending the German infantry running. Delestraint’s tanks broke through the city center, sending the 57. ID into a great panic. The 1st Armoured and its Mk Vis soon followed, engulfing the breach and forcing the 57. ID to completely abandon the bridgeheads it still had.

This prompted a quick reaction from OKH: immediately, Luftwaffe efforts were switched from hammering the port of Boulogne (where a general evacuation was underway) to the town of Abbeville, in the hope of crushing this counter-push.

This order would come not a minute too soon, as the Luftwaffe attack greatly helped to repulse the Dixmude bomber group, which had once more come to hammer at the defenders. These ones were intercepted, and despite the valiant defence of the RAF Spitfires and French D-520s, were cut down with significant losses.

For the Dixmude itself, things were not completely fine either. U-Boots, already patrolling the area looking for transports, soon gathered at the scene, and one of them managed to hit three torpedoes on the light carrier. While one of them did not explode, two did, causing severe water leaks which forced her to return to Devonport.

But on the ground, the results were there: the French naval bombers had managed to knock out most anti-tank positions, allowing Delestraint to run up to Rue by evening, with the British reaching Forest-Montiers, and the Australians close on their tail.

Immediately, OKH ordered a stop on the attack on Boulogne, and an immediate counter-attack on this spearhead, which inched closer to Berck with every passing hour.
Faster than their French counterparts, the British light tanks took the road, reaching Berck on July 11th, and flying towards Le Touquet. The Australians were right behind them, reaching Montreuil-sur-Mer on the evening of the 11th.

To the north, emboldened by this success, the French 21st Infantry, at Boulogne, decided to counter-attack, hoping to pin the elements of the 1st Panzer advancing towards it. These attacks were greatly successful, as the defenders smashes the weakly-defended lines, and reached Neufchatel by evening.

This successful attack completely baffled General Lanquetot, in command of the 21st Infantry. The man, who expected much stronger resistance, was overjoyed, and urged his men forward.

During the night of July 11th to 12th, the first elements of the 21st Infantry encountered the vanguard of the 1st Armoured Division. In later Vichy propaganda movies, it would be the opposite: brave French soldiers lending a hand to the cowardly English…in fact, most of the troops that managed to reach out to the Lys line were Commonwealth soldiers, since the French were busy to the south.
And busy they were! For the 1st Panzer had not abandoned Boulogne.

Instead, they had withdrawn from their positions, and with the support of the reinvigorated 10th Panzer, had struck to the east, at an ominous place for the French: Crécy-en-Ponthieu.

Ramming into the Allied flank, which had dangerously overextended itself, the German Panzers thrust deep into the 51st (Highland) Infantry’s core, destabilizing the division. Fierce fights would take place all throughout the afternoon of July 11th and the night after, with the French of the 4e DCR running to help with whatever vehicles they could get.
But it was not enough.

The 51st broke, and the 4e DCR, whose vehicles were spread out from Berck to Le Crotoy, was in no position to help. The Allies had gambled too much for their cavalcade, and they would pay the price.

Kirchner, at the head of his division, would manage to smash the Allied line at Crecy, heading straight south towards Noyelles, with the support of the 57. Infanterie-Division. The French tanks did put up a valiant fight to try and stop this push, but under Luftwaffe pressure, it was all in vain: the pocket had closed on Delestraint once more.

The Germans then started to move from both sides. Taking advantage that Weygand had poorly managed his flanks, OKH sent Schaal’s 10th Panzer to pressure Abbeville, easily dispatching the remnants of the poor French division that had started to plug the gap.

The Allied advance had been too quick, and they had made the same mistake as the Germans: the infantry did not have time to follow. The 10th Panzer thus struck undefended rear lines, retaking Abbeville, and getting bridgeheads along the Somme at Pont-Remy and the east of Abbeville.

Meanwhile, to the north, the 1st Armoured, 6th Australian Infantry and 4e DCR both tried breaking back out: in vain. The lines of the 1st Panzer were solid, and the armoured division had received the support of motorized divisions which prevented any breakout.

All day, during the 13th, French, British and Australian tried in vain to reach Abbeville, but only lost valuable men and AFVs. By evening, it was clear that any attempt to break out would be impossible. Delestraint was ordered to withdraw his troops to Boulogne, and start evacuating from there.
The Allies had managed to reconnect with the Lys line for a mere six hours.
But Delestraint’s gamble was not a total failure.

In his offensive, he had made OKH waste many resources which would have been much more useful in reducing the Calais, Boulogne and Dunkerque pockets, most of which were undergoing massive evacuations. In fact, on July 13th, Zeebrugge had only just fallen and Oostende had just been isolated.
One could say today that Delestraint and Fortune’s counter-offensive did not fail: it merely did not achieve its original objective. Certainly, the Lys line had not been reached, but the offensive made it so that Dynamo would succeed. And while the Allied armour suffered from Boulogne to Abbeville, the BEF and Belgian Armies were being saved, almost without a single drop of blood.

However, the loss of the 1st Armoured and the 4e DCR would be sorely felt during Fall Rot…

[1] OTL, it was re-routed following the fall of France and Italy’s entry into the war. A month more delay means that the British are more confident in sending it to France.
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[loic]

Plusieurs remarques :
- l'infanterie qui n'accompagne pas les blindés : je ne vois pas pourquoi les Alliés n'auraient pas appris de l'erreur commise par les Allemands précédemment ; il reste au moins la 3ème DIM et sans doute des unités de cavalerie (GRDI par exemple) pour suivre les blindés
- le soutien naval : les pointes allemandes avancées jusqu'à la Manche vont subir un déluge de feu, leur position sera difficilement tenable si les Alliés coordonnent leur attaque avec le soutien naval (surtout de nuit, pour limiter l'intervention de la LW)
- l'ingérence des U-boots : à ce stade, elle est marginale et la Royal Navy a suffisamment de navires pour ratisser la Mer du Nord et empêcher/diminuer fortement toute interférence ; la Luftwaffe ne peut pas (plus) être partout pour empêcher les navires de faire leur travail
Voir à ce sujet https://uboat.net/maps/north_sea.htm : 3 U-boots ont été coulés en Mer du Nord de janvier à mai 1940 (je ne tiens pas compte du l'U-63 coulé au nord-est de l'Ecosse) par l'aviation, les mines ou les navires alliés.
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On ne trébuche pas deux fois sur la même pierre (proverbe oriental)
En principe (moi) ...

[houps]

La 3 DIM ? Elle n'est pas un peu "fatiguée" ?
_________________
Timeo danaos et dona ferentes.
Quand un PDG fait naufrage, on peut crier "La grosse légume s'échoue".
Une presbyte a mauvaise vue, pas forcément mauvaise vie.

[DMZ]

Il y a une digue qui ferme la baie de Somme sur laquelle circule un train entre Saint-Valéry-sur-Somme et Noyelles-sur-Mer. Elle peut être empruntée même par des blindés. C'est un terrain plus favorable qu'Abbeville qui va dégénérer en combats de rue défavorables aux blindés et aux attaquants.

Il n'est pas nécessaire d'aventurer le Dixmude dans la Manche et moins encore le Pas-de-Calais, les appareils peuvent opérer de Querqueville, à côté de Cherbourg, (à 250 km d'Abbeville et 260 km de Boulogne) qui est un terrain de la Marine à partir duquel les LN 401 se sont entraînés OTL donc bien connu et parfaitement équipé pour cette opération. Et même s'ils interviennent à partir du Dixmude, il n'y a aucune raison de le faire naviguer plus à l'Est que les Anglo-Normandes (sans compter la remarque de Loic sur les U-boot).

Les vieux cuirassés Courbet et Paris ont fait de l'appui-feu OTL en juin 1940 au Havre et à Cherbourg, on devrait les retrouver ici du côté de Boulogne où ils pourraient bien se prendre une ou deux bombes de la LW.

La bataille conduite chère aux Français rend improbable une poussée trop conséquente séparant les chars de l'infanterie. Il y a quand même une cinquantaine de kilomètres à percer, beaucoup trop pour que même un De Gaulle s'y risque sans consolider ses gains.

À cette date, la supériorité aérienne doit être très disputée car il y a trois GC de l'AdA dans la poche. Au sud du front, la chasse sera présente sur les terrains de Le Havre - Octeville, Rouen - Boos, Beauvais - Tillé, Chantilly - les Aigles, Betz - Bouillancy, Soisson - Saconin et, au sud de la Seine, Évreux, Buc, Villacoublay, Melun (75 à 150 km du front). La RAF étant présente de part et d'autre du Channel.

De son côté, la Luftwaffe ne pourra être plus près que Rotterdam ou Bruxelles (190 à 240 km). Compte tenu de l'allonge des Bf 109, il y a tout lieu de penser que ce sont eux qui seront à la peine au dessus de Boulogne et plus encore Abbeville.

[Ppblouin21]

Si les alliés ont perdu du materiel, Les pertes allemandes doivent aussi etre conséquentes a ce stade, au moins un tiers des blindes, pareil pour la Lufwaffe, difficile d'envisager une issue rapide en France sauf trahison des futurs vichistes, quand a la bataille d'angleterre et l'operation Seelowe, avec une plus grande volonté de se battre des escadrilles francaise pourrait aller en Angleterre aussi bien qu'en Algérie...complétant la RAF, de plus un certain nombre d'avions modernes devrait être en service: Bloch 155, Arsenal VG 33, Martlet francais...

[loic]

[Wings]

@loic: Plot reasons. La 3e DIM est a Amiens. Pour les pointes allemandes, celles-ci vont se prendre un gros déluge de feu. J'ai corrigé les U-Boots pour que ce soit un raid de la Luftwaffe.

@DMZ: J'ai ajouté la manoeuvre de Noyelles. Pour le Dixmude, je le mets quand meme (encore une fois pour des "plot reasons"). De Gaulle n'est pas au commandement de cette force, c'est Delestraint qui commande, et Weygand au-dessus.
Pour les GCs, ceux-ci vont se retrouver en GB, mais plus tard.

@Ppblouin: Il n'y aura pas de Bataille d'Angleterre. La Bataille de France aura trop couté a la Luftwaffe pour qu'Hitler envoie encore plus de ressources vers l'ile. Il se contentera de défendre et envoyer quelques bombardiers de temps en temps. Son vrai objectif est a l'est.
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[Ppblouin21]

Ou en est la Marine Nationale? Le Jean-Bart doit etre un peu plus avancé, il serait peut etre judicieux de l'envoyer en Angleterre ou aux US pour le terminer et l'ameliorer , le Joffre pourrait -il naviguer?

[Wings]

Chapter 16: Dynamo and Consequences (July 1940 – Flanders)

Even before Delestraint’s counter-attack, preparations for a full evacuation had began. The Lys line would be manned by elements of both French, British and Belgian armies.

Most notably, the French redoubt at Lille, comprising of some 40,000 men, was ordered to stand its ground and to fight “to the last cartridge, or to the destruction of [its] command”. In essence, both sides were aware that unless a miracle offensive could dislodge the trapped armies: they would need a massive evacuation.

The main priority for the Allies was to keep German forces at bay while holding the critical Boulogne-Calais-Dunkirk axis. The defenses of Oostende and Zeebrugge were also bolstered, though the Allied command knew that these were eventually doomed to fall. The Belgian Army Corps would only have to delay German forces up until the outskirts of Dunkirk.

In the meantime, the French fighters, which provided much of the air cover necessary for these evacuations, were ordered to operate from English airfields when their bases would eventually fall. With the RAF also covering the evacuation, the Allies could at least contest the air over the ports, which would greatly help the evacuations.

France, Belgium and Britain all mobilized all available means: military, civilian…anything that floated was immediately requisitioned and sailed to one of the Allied ports to help with this great feat. Indeed, one forgets that in the myth of the “little ships”, there were countless French vessels hailing from Cherbourg, Dieppe or even as far as Brest and Saint-Malo, that all had come to ferry the Allied troops.

The Allied forces also wished to evacuate much of the heavy equipment. Most notably, the motorized vehicles and remaining tanks left in the pocket. But that would prove to be a tremendous task.

AA and AT guns were given priority, along with much of the heavy artillery. Though, in some cases, the French motorized barges brought back from Norway did manage to load a lot of various armored equipment: SOMUA S35s, Vickers Mark VI, etc…

The intervention of the French barges would prove decisive for the transport of most of the heavy equipment. Fast, and already experienced with the transport of such heavy equipment during the Norway campaign, the little boats multiplied the journeys between Dover and Calais or Dunkirk, saving many vehicles that seemed to have been condemned to rotting on the French beaches or falling into German hands…

In the meantime, the British did not sit idle. The Royal Engineers constructed new piers in Calais, Dunkirk and Boulogne, capable of evacuating many soldiers trapped in the pocket. But most of the first evacuees would actually come from the east: at Oostende and Zeebrugge, the Belgian Army Corps was evacuating everything it could to Britain.

With the German troops approaching, the Dutch and Belgian troops were the first to get to Britain, even before most British forces. It was also to be said that the Belgians were on the much weaker side of the Lys line, where the German pressure was the strongest.
Despite this, though, most of the evacuation was done in very good order.

This was due to Delestraint’s counter-offensive, which sent many German plans awry.
Indeed, OKH had hoped to quickly crush these ports to be able to inflict a considerable amount of casualties to the Allies. But with the threat of the pockets being linked on a coastal line that could be supported with naval artillery, it would undo all their plans.

And while the Allied forces would eventually be defeated, this greatly hampered the German forces. Not only had they had to lose more vehicles in this counter-offensive, but it had helped many more forces to quickly escape, while the French continued to fight all along the Lys line. Lille had not been cut off, and Zeebrugge had barely fallen.

But the Axis counter-attack at Abbeville also meant something more: the Allied forces that were now trapped in the pockets had just reinforced the defenders with much needed armor. Delestraint and Fortune’s forces, on July 14th, were almost a blessing in disguise for the Allied evacuations, as the French 21st Infantry Division was not equipped to deal with a Panzer thrust on Boulogne. But now, with the reinforcement of half an infantry division and a good chunk of armor, they could hold the port for much longer than planned.

And they were right. When the Germans tried to thrust towards the city, on July 15th, they found it to be extremely well defended, with the French armor being used as improvised forts along the road to Boulogne.
The Germans were not doing terribly everywhere, though.

By July 16th, Lille had finally been cut off, and Oostende had fallen. But the crucial link between Boulogne, Calais and Dunkirk remained. And the Germans, who were exhausted by the Allied counter-attack, the planning of the future Fall Rot, and having to deal with the 40,000 French in Lille, could not do more than watch as more and more Allied troops poured out of the ports.

It was not until July 18th that the Germans finally broke the final defence line at Licques, flooding past the Flemish hills and towards the gap at Calais and Dunkirk. Ardes, then Marck, were reached, isolating the British from Dunkirk.
While Weygand wanted to reestablish the link between these two, Alphonse Juin, who was organising the retreat of the French divisions, disagreed. He sent a message to Weygand stating that an attack towards Calais would only be a waste of men which would be needed to fight another day.

In the meantime, more than 70,000 troops were being evacuated every day, even as the air attacks became more frequent. The Armée de l’Air and RAF fought hard to keep the docks open, allowing more troops to pour out between July 18th and 21st, until finally, the pressure was too much to bear.

Calais was taken on the 21st, leaving two isolated pockets at Dunkirk and Boulogne. It was on the second that the first French soldiers were embarked, long after their Dutch, Belgian, Pole, Australian and British comrades. But this was much more a reality of the terrain than anything else: the French had been tasked to hold the line and they had done it masterfully, buying time for the others to evacuate.

The final British forces left on the night of July 23rd, those being the last remaining of Victor Fortune’s forces, which had held the line at Boulogne. The next day, the port fell, leaving a devastated harbor for the Heer to take.
Only Dunkirk stood, where British, French, Belgian, Dutch and Danish ships continued their ballet, under constant threat of air attack.

That same day, the last French forces in Lille were ordered to break out to Dunkirk. Their heroic stand had immobilized 160,000 German troops, which were much needed to reduce the Channel ports. Failing that, they were to surrender or disperse.

The break out attempt failed, but it still gave a headache to the Germans, who were now wholly focused on the inevitable capitulation of Dunkirk and the start of Fall Rot. Every single day’s delay was another day where the French reinforced the Somme and the Aisne…

Still, on July 25th, Lille capitulated. The next day, the last French elements were evacuated from Dunkirk. Alphonse Juin was the last to embark, managing to see the German Panzers in the distance as he left.

For the Allies, Dynamo was a massive success. In all, the Allies managed to evacuate more than half a million men. 300,000 British (and Australians), 300,000 Belgians (and Dutch) and 200,000 French (and Poles) were successfully evacuated. A success trumpeted by the British for all that could hear.

However, for certain French generals, Dynamo was not seen in such a positive light. For people like Weygand, they saw it as a total defeat: the loss of most of their armored force and many good soldiers. To them, they would need to seek the best terms possible with Germany in order to get out of the war before their entire army was lost.

But for their young Minister of War, this meant one thing: France had lost a battle, but it certainly had not lost the war.

Though, all of this meant that the French nation was divided. And when the Germans came knocking on July 27th, so would end many Frenchmen’s hopes to be able to carry the fight from their own soil.
_________________
"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue." Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mai 1941
"Let me soar! [...] I need no great host, just [Tyene]" - Nymeria Sand, AFFC II

[solarien]

Comme le dit DMZ, je vois mal les français lancer une contre-offensive en profondeur alors qu'ils n'ont pas les moyens de couvrir leur flan.

De plus, il y a une différence importante entre déplacer une unité dans une terre hostile et le faire dans ton pays. Les français ont une partie de leur troupes de réserve du coté de l'Alsace-Lorraine, troupe qu'ils utilisent OTL pour faire la ligne Weygand, donc qu'ils pourraient utiliser la pour renforcer leur flan, ensuite, les chars allemands sont penser pour l'exploitation de la percée et la vitesse, par contre, excepter les Somua S-35, la plupart des chars français ne dépassent pas les 20km/h.

Je remarque aussi que tu fais intervenir la 10PzDiv d'un coup alors qu'on ne sais pas vraiment ou elle se trouvait avant. Je tiens aussi a te faire remarquer que les PanzerDivision ont deux type d'organisation en 1940, 5 avec 2 régiment de char et 5 avec 1 régiment de char et sur les 4 que tu envoies à l'offensive d'Abbeville, seul la 5 PzDiv a 2 régiment de chars.
Il faut pas que tu oublie qu'en 1940, 75% des chars allemands sont des Pz I et II, juste capable de combattre de l'infanterie, incapable de détruire le moindre char français.

Les textes et l'Histoire sont super, mais il y a trop d'incohérence, de manque pour paraitre réaliste.
Comme tu l'as dit, tu dois faire perdre la France, et tu fais tout pour que cela arrive, mais malheureusement, tu le fais mal. Et sur le long terme, je suis pas sûre que les lecteurs continuent à le lire.

PS: petit lien rapide sur les PzDiv
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerdivision#Liste_des_divisions_de_la_Wehrmacht_Heer_comprenant_des_unit%C3%A9s_de_panzers

[Wings]

[DMZ]

Les petites remarques du matin :